Neon has always been cleaner and longer lasting than any other sign light source and is even better with the use of modern processing equipment.
Neon became Energy Efficient with the use of dependable modern power supplies.
Neon became brighter with modern colors and phosphor coatings.
Neon became recyclable with the removal of lead from the glass and the high demand for the safe recycling of CFL's.
Neon became safe with load sensing circuits on power supplies.
Neon is still made in the U.S.A.
Neon is affordable.
Neon is the past, present and future of the signage industry.
I work a lot with LED's because I build a lot of very small intricate
items that only the led will light correctly. As far as standard channel letters go I think LED's are mostly a fool proof way to go for a quick easy sign and good for beginners. Ive worked with fiber optics on a few rare occasions and even customized some LED's to work in certain situations. Never had to work with lasers yet but I'm sure some designer will throw me for a loop one day. So I'm definitely one of those neon guys that doesn't hate LED's or any other options that we have.
However and you knew this was coming if I was putting a set of channel letters on a business that belonged to myself or a friend it would be lit with neon. I think most sign business people would feel the same.
For a customer I'd say give them the option. Let them decide whats best for their needs and if that company can't provide or get neon then do what they can do. When you think about it no sign companies that I know have in house production of LED's they have to order them just like neon.
There is good quality LED's and good quality neon and there is bad quality of both as well. A good quality neon job will be the best value for the dollar every time that choice is available.
I make the same amount of money no matter what I use so it is an honest opinion.
Surfing this board isn't normally my favorite thing to do but it's hot in Phoenix right now and I don't want to go outside. This seems like a good way to kill time.
I was thinking about what would be the best way for the average consumer to understand their options when lighting a sign and realized that in my own home I use many different sources of light.
I have the incandescent bulb because I can buy a pack for $1 for four of them. I realize that the electricity they use defeats that purpose but I buy them anyway they have to be changed very often.
I have some neon which is probably unusual to the average person but I never have had to change it and it has a low energy use transformer and cast a lot of light and is often the focal point of the room.
I have some fluorescents in the garage functional and bright not attractive but useful.
I don't have any LED lighting but I have seen it and it makes nice low energy spot light lighting for certain applications.
And I have CFL's probably the most popular light in my home for both energy consumption and light output. These rarely need changing and seem to be reasonably priced. We are all strongly encouraged to use this type of lighting for all of its benefits.
I have seen for sale LED lighting that looks and acts like a light bulb but I don't own any and not really for any particular reason maybe they would be a good alternative but why try them when the CFL is reliable and efficient and certainly the most encouraged form of lighting.
If I had to compare neon to any of these sources it would be most like the CFL only neon is actually more efficient and long lasting than any CFL in fact the CFL could be replaced by neon.
The company that makes the LED bulb would certainly want you to believe that you could replace your CFL's with them but we all know that probably wont happen any more than neon would replace them simply because neon is mom and pop and cant mass produce that type of product.
The Led and CFL market are all run by the big corporate companies they have equal power for advertising yet the CFL is the choice most people have made because it has been found to be the best choice.
So with that being said why isn't CFL type lighting the best choice for a set of channel letters. Probably because you cant bend a CFL into the shape of a letter. So then why would LED's be a better choice for a letter than neon? Yes they are used and yes they are easy but are they a better choice?
You may be missing your own point. What are "CFL's"? CFL means "Compact Fluorescent Lamp". That is EXACTLY what a phosphor coated neon tube is; a compact fluorescent lamp. There are a few minor differences and one main difference. The main one is the type of electrode used. The mainstream CFL intended to replace your incandescent light bulb uses a hot cathode electrode, whereas a neon tube uses a cold cathode electrode. The latter lasts MUCH longer than the prior, assuming each is made to the same quality standards.
As it becomes more widely known that CFL's contain the dreaded "killer mercury" (actually it is widely known now, but the general public doesn't care as long as they are "saving energy") you will see them replaced by another type of light source. This is already happening with variations of led's, and it is not by mistake or progress. This is planned obsolescence. It is all about big corporations making more money - nothing else.
All you hear about now is to replace your incandescent bulbs with CFL's because the latter is more "green" (energy efficient). That is only true from an operating cost standpoint. The "carbon footprint" (as the tree huggers like to call it) created by manufacturing CFL's and led's more than outweighs the energy saved by normal operation of these devices. And this doesn't even take into account disposal. An incandescent bulb is 100% recyclable and so is neon. CFL's and led's are far from it. So on top of the increased energy required to manufacture these new light sources compared to their so-called antiquated counterparts, they contribute more to our landfills, including additional toxins that incandescent and neon do not have.
I know you have done much more research about this subject than I have SVP so my question is. Since I have recycling facilities near me that accept the mercury containing large florescent tubes,CFL's and argon mercury filled neon. I don't know if there is any LED recycling.
Is it the manufacturing process of CFL's and LED's that produce non recyclable toxins or is it the completed product? Is it the power and fuel consumption used during manufacturing?
For instance if my electricity came from a nuclear power plant one could say my manufacturing of neon is responsible for nuclear waste and I would respond no the manufacturing of electricity is responsible for nuclear waste.
Or is it something else entirely?
I am not aware of any recycling facilities specifically set up to handle led’s, although there may be some in the larger metropolitan areas. Of course Phoenix is pretty big, so if there were such facilities I would think your city would have one. With that said, you may be able to turn old led’s in at an electronics recycling facility. I don’t know for sure because I haven’t looked into it.
The manufacturing process for electronic neon and led power supplies is pretty much a wash, so that part of it is a moot point. Although both power supplies can theoretically be recycled, it is cost prohibitive. But a conventional neon transformer can be recycled for the copper and steel without exorbitant cost.
Beyond neon and led power supplies, the base of CFL’s and led modules contain plastics and electronics. Again, theoretically these can be recycled, but is very involved so it is cost prohibitive.
It is now well known that “digital electronics” (printed circuit boards, diodes, etc.) contain components that are not good for landfills due to what the resulting run-off contains. This is why the environmentalists have been trying to set up recycling centers specifically for old electronics: computers, cell phones, etc. and all the peripherals that go with them. CFL’s and led’s are similar in this regard: there are components of each that are difficult if not impossible to recycle. However, there are now recycling centers for CFL’s (usually Lowe’s, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, etc.), but none for led’s. To my knowledge, the recycling attempts for CFL’s are little more than a joke to appease the environmentalists. The main objective is an attempt to reclaim the minute amount of mercury they contain (11 mg) and not much else.
As for led’s, they are probably worse than CFL’s and certainly worse than neon for the environment. In addition to creating a larger “carbon footprint” than neon to manufacture, they contain lead that can actually leach out of the components (unlike lead glass tubing that has been proven to not leach lead), arsenic and a dozen other potentially hazardous substances. For example, a recent study done on low intensity led Christmas light strands; red, yellow and green traffic lights; and automobile headlights and brake lights indicated there was up to eight times the amount of lead allowed under California law (interesting indeed considering the demise of lead glass tubing). Brighter, more intense led’s had even more contaminants. In addition to arsenic and lead, led’s also contain nickel and other metals and components that have been linked to different cancers, neurological damage, kidney disease, hypertension, skin rashes and other illnesses. Considering that led’s are typically just thrown in the trash and resulting landfills, this should be a very real concern for environmentalists and others who jumped on the led bandwagon to replace neon with led’s and/or CFL’s.
Once you understand and realize that GE (General Electric) is the largest producer of CFL’s and led’s in the world and did not pay one penny in taxes last year due to their political affiliations and connections (GE is one of Obama’s largest contributors) you will start to see the big picture. Like I said, follow the money. Once incandescent light bulbs become illegal in 2014 we will have two choices: CFL or led.
Overall neon is a very small market and therefore an easy target for those in office who want their constituents to think they are actually doing something for their paychecks. In reality, what they are doing is making things worse, not better. Don’t act surprised. It is just “business as usual” for our elected officials and those who pull their strings.
This is excellent information. All people in this business should be looking at this, as laws requiring the recycling of these item are spreading from state to state. Many state already have these laws in place. I see environmental disposal fees soon becoming part of everyday life.
So I have looked into what is available in my area and there is no specific LED recyclers in Phoenix. I use the earth 911 website that can be used for anyone anywhere. As you said I believe this would be categorized as electronics and therefore any electronics that are not currently recycled for any reason then are sent to an electronics land fill. I'm sure this is not a perfect solution but maybe better than nothing. Tree hugging is extreme but it doesn't hurt to clean up after ourselves a little when we can.
I have also learned that the main concern beyond the G.E. monopolies is the coal burning power plants. Using incandescent bulbs requires more coal burned and more toxic waste including mercury, arsenic and lots of other nasty little things. I won't be fishing anywhere near a coal plant for the next million years. Therefore it is only relevant if you live in one of those areas Otherwise you may be making things worse as you also stated unless your only concern is your power bill. The CFL contains less mercury than would normally be released by the burning of coal to power the same incandescent bulb. Someone needs a new power plant. Maybe Obama and G.E. can do something about that. Coal burning plants are nasty, sorry coal workers of America. I'm not picking on you SVP I know you guys love and need your coal there in SC.
In all seriousness though this country and world is facing a lot of problems and these are the least of our worries. Companies like G.E. are easy to pick on because they often choose profit over responsibility. This is actually required by the stock holders. It is these exact companies that have the power to make the changes we need and it will only be done if the average people like us make it profitable for them to make these changes and please the stock holders. Good or bad it was us that paid G.E. and others to do everything they have done and it is also us that have to pay them to stop it.
On a side note I think this type of logic can be applied to many areas in our lives. We can help people and companies to do the right thing or the wrong thing if thats what we want. It has taken me most of my life to learn this but I see myself doing this more and more and since millions of people are reading this intently hanging on every word I will give some specific examples. :)
Graffiti, kids love it home owners don't so when I can see some graffiti from my home I don't spend a lot of time complaining that the neighbor doesn't take care of the problem I just grab my bucket of paint and tell the neighbor that since I'm doing some paint work already I figured I'd stop by and fix that for them. I'm happy, neighbors happy, everyones happy.
Weeds, A lot of empty homes around. This may only apply to the desert areas but we like to have rock front yards here. So every two weeks or so I have to go out with weed spay and spray new weeds in the yard only takes a minute to spray the ones near me also. I got news if you have a nice yard and six foot weeds on both sides of you, you might be a redneck. Again I'm happy neighbors are happy, everyones happy.
Neon, See you knew there was a point here somewhere didn't you. I don't know whats going on in sign companies near you but here the LED suppliers are out in force visiting customers for years now with a yes sir attitude. Yes sir I will help you with that LED layout and yes sir I will deliver these LED's right to your door. Is there anything else I can do for you today sir. Neon is still saying bring me your patterns and then come get your glass when it's ready. Thats not working out so well.
I’m still not really sure what your point was, but it appears you and I have a different outlook on things. For example, I don’t listen to the MSM (main stream media) about much of anything any more because I will never hear or read the real truth from them. Based on your apparent mindset it would seem you do. No offense intended, but some of your comments look a lot like “follow the leader”.
As for the coal plants, may I suggest you do some research on your own and disregard what you have been brain washed into believing by the MSM and tree hugger crowd. No, the term tree hugger is not what is extreme. THEY are what is extreme. They are perpetuating the greatest hoax the world has ever seen - and most of them don’t even realize it because they are blindly following what they have been brain washed into believing.
While you are at it, do some research on the considerably more efficient incandescent light bulb that GE was developing that (if I remember correctly) was something like 70% or 80% more efficient than the most efficient one currently available. Then ask yourself why it was never marketed. I could go on but it would likely be meaningless to the intended audience.
Considering your insertion of GE advertisements in your message, I question what you are really all about and what your intentions are.
:) Actually we have very similar view points about all of this my intended sarcasm is sometimes lost through the keyboard.
I know that you know SC. is a beautiful place to be and go fishing and the image portrayed is false and profit motivated. ( its why I used that example ) I know it is companies like G.E. that create these images through the main stream media. I also know that I am unable to change this problem because of how profitable it is for the them and it will never change if it stays that way.
So my point really is that we can only help change the things that we are close to and involved with and it doesn't matter what it is. The neon manufacturer can go to the sign companies in his area and be more helpful than the LED supplier and make it profitable and easy to use neon and explain the benefits. 1 person won't change anything world wide but they can influence their neighbors. If one of the concerns is that scary killer mercury then they can provide recycling as one more benefit offered by their neon plant. This can help the customer feel good about purchasing neon even if their concerns are overly exaggerated by MSM. I have been around people who handle mercury daily and have never heard of one person having any health effects. So I know this image is exaggerated.
It can be applied to more than signs or neon. I cant change the country but I can and do try and help maintain my neighborhood. I don't have to be extreme like a tree hugger I only need to do what is easy for me to do. I don't even need to be concerned with the entire neighborhood just what is right in front of me.
But back to neon because this is a neon thread. I think that if 1 person from each neon company spent one morning a week at a sign company in their neighborhood and helped them out for a few minutes with whatever they need while offering to help with layout patterns, coming to them for their needs and delivering the products to their door, things would become better for the neon industry but 1 person can't change the industry they can only help to change things in their neighborhood. This is not being done by any of the neon shops around here that I am aware of and it is really unfortunate because I see the larger neon supply companies have supplied them with all the tools necessary to compete as seen in my original post. This is how things used to be and it wasn't because being friendly and helpful was profitable it was because that sign company neighbor was our friend and we wanted to stop by and have a cup of coffee with them on our way to work.
I have been watching the big money for a long time and understand the practices they use and can tell from our conversation that you do also. Unfortunately I can't do anything about it.
Neon is something that is important to me and I know it is to you as well. When I see another product being sold based on untruth or misleading a customer simply for profit while trying to destroy all competition I don't think it's right. As someone who makes neon I feel that I am honest about the product. If someone needs a light bulb I'm not going to try and convince them that they need to buy neon instead so that I can have their money but I see that this is the strategy being used by the LED supplier and very effectively.
The giants have created a false image and problems around the entire world and use it to control that world for their own selfish needs in every aspect of life.
All I want to see is a nice set of neon in a nice set of channel letters because that is one of the many correct uses for neon. If I see another neon maker that is producing substandard neon instead of laughing at them and hoping to gain their customers maybe I should befriend them and try to help them and if I see another neon maker who is making a better product than I maybe I should befriend them and learn from them.
This is how I was taught the trade and helped teach others the trade for a long time and now I see things have changed. It's not that way with everyone I still have friends that I visit with in the business. A while back I stopped to visit one of those old friends that I hadn't seen in a long time not aware that he had been injured and sold the company. I explained who I was and why I was there expecting to be greeted and accepted as a fellow tradesman, as has always been the case anywhere in the past and instead it was made very clear to me that I was not welcome and I was not going to be allowed to say hello to anyone that worked there that I may know. I wasn't even going to be allowed to look through the office window into the shop. Maybe they thought they were hiding some sort of neon secret or product from me. Considering I worked with the former owner on the unique products that he developed (which are no longer unique ) I don't think they had anything to be worried about. I din't help him develop them I just made what he wanted made.
I have very little knowledge about the products of G.E. and certainly am not advertising for them. I am just an average everyday sign business worker and never have any intention on being anything else. I am however building a small neon shop on the side and when I am finished I would be happy to make neon for the people who use this forum but until then I have no products for sale and don't even make a living solely from neon. I receive an architectural drawing and build what is shown in that drawing. The architects that I get most of my drawings from love to incorporate neon lighting into their designs but it is still a very small percentage of the entire job.
Sorry for any misunderstanding. I don't believe that any of the giants will ever do anything that isn't profitable for them. But I do believe that they have the power to do anything that is profitable for them, I think this is where I was misunderstood. I was not saying that someday they will do good things I was saying it would only be done if it were profitable which may be never. I never even intended to discuss them at all it just became part of the conversation.
My original post was a very simple statement as to how things have changed since I started back when we used greased ground glass stopcocks and a transformer would teach you a lesson if you touched a sign with a short and how many more colors we have to choose from now. As for anything else In this thread I agree with your view point and have stated that you have done the research and I haven't. I even had to look up why they claim we should use a cfl. I'm not offended and didn't mean to offend you either. I new that my intended audience had done the research and assumed that the sarcasm would be obvious and nothing more than a friendly poke in the ribs. Just as I assume you are just giving me a friendly poke in the ribs.
Wow that was a lot of typing.
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A lot of the LED takeover in the sign world has to do with the marketing power of big names, Phillips, GE, et.al. It's going to take a decade for the truth to come out, rather like all the big names on Wall Street telling all the uninformed about why they should let Wall Street handle their money.....sooner or later, the Ponzi Scheme (marketing scheme in this case) comes crashing down. Oh, I'm not saying that LED.'s don't have a place, they do, my game is Light, all forms, even LASER image and display (holography too), however, LED isn't the only answer, nor is it the absolute correct answer, all the time, for all of time, it's just another form of light to be used if, when, and as needed. Besides, ANYBODY can work in LED, sign shops that never could make channel signs due to not having a glass department, can now go after those big national accounts which used to be beyond their reach, if for no other reason than most of those accounts required IN HOUSE PRODUCTION of ALL phases of the sign package.