Are you starting a sign business, or considering starting one? If so, this new book will introduce you to many of the important facets involved in running a sign shop. Getting Started in the Sign Business ...
We no longer want to outsource our digital print jobs, so we have decided that a large format printer should be our next big ticket
Purchase. What should our main concerns be (size & quality of print) and were should we start our research. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks James
James:
IMO, your two best choices are Seiko CP64S (see www.seiko-i.com) or Mimaki JV3-160SP (see www.mimakiusa.com). Mimaki offers a bundled system (printer and stand alone vinyl cutter) for die-cutting decals. If you already own a stand alone vinyl cutter then most likely it will die-cut decals as long as you have the correct software.
Both printers are 6 color and print 60+" wide. The Seiko printer generally costs a bit more than the Mimaki; however, it is considerably faster and has higher print quality and better color gamut.
Good printing. If you have additional questions, you can email or call me.
Bob Gruner
www.gochromatek.com
bob@chromatek-inc.com
Bob Gruner has recommended the Seiko Colorpainter and it is certainly a good machine. However, we believe that the Redhill D2300 may be a wiser choice. This printer handles 86 inch wide stock and is therefore capable of many banner applications. In addition, ink costs only $85 per liter (compare to Seiko $299). Assuming you run both machines 6 hours per day, 5 days per week, you will consume 5 liters of ink each week. That makes the Seiko cost an additional $1000 per week in running costs. True, Seiko warrantees their Konica printheads for one year and Redhill only warrantees its Konica printheads for 3 months, but at a "tax" of $1000 per week, one can afford a lot of printheads. That said, the Konica should last years as long as you are careful not to scratch the head when cleaning.
The Redhill D2300 is a 6-color printer, like the Seiko, and uses the same printheads as the Seiko. It also uses Toyo ink, like the Seiko. The machine costs $45,000. This is more expensive than the Colorpainter, but ink costs pay for the difference in 15 weeks. And it prints on 86" stock as compared to 60" stock.
Compared to the Mimaki, one only need look at speed. The D2300 runs at 175 sq ft per hour on banner stock and poster paper and this at full 720 X 720 X 6-color mode. For photo-quality self adhesive film, it runs at 80 sq feet per hour, and for wraps at 175 sq ft per hour.
Look at www.red-hill.com for details
James,
Both of these guys are very educated in our industry and I have no doubt that both machines they have replied about will be fantastic choices. There are only a couple of thing that concern me though and that is. Your budget and your target clients. We deal with alot of start up print shops and we always recommend starting slow instead of jumping into a 30k-40k machine it might make sense to purchase a non-solvent machine such as an HP-5500.
I say this because these machines are being sold for about $4500.00 by us and your machine will start paying for itself right now, not 3 or 4 months down the road and we all know the bottom line here is making more profit and growing the business. Solvent machines are very hot right now and thats mainly because you can produce your graphics at a lower cost but you have to put alot more out to obtain the hardware.
Lets say you need to run some digital banners, well to do it off an HP you will be looking at about $1.30 to produce it. ($0.50 a sq.ft for UV inks and about $0.80 a sq. ft for the banner material) To produce it off the machines these guys are talking about it would cost you about $0.60 a sq.ft to produce. ($0.30 for ink and $0.26 for material) There are a few things with HP's that you cannot do off a solvent printer as well. Every shop we deal with has always started with an HP type machine and then once the client base is large enough they upgrade to a solvent printer. They almost always keep the HP to do things the solvent machine cannot or when they need very high quality (fine art, tradeshow graphics)
Well there is my two cents on the matter and the two questions above are really all we need to know to find out what machine will best support the type of business you are trying to achieve. If you have any questions give me a call.
Josh Cormany
Media One
888-445-4099
Mr. Barrett is obviously a sales agent for Redhill, with several factual errors in his post.
1. The ink price is incorrect for the Seiko ColorPainter printer.
2. The ink consumption rate in incorrect for the Seiko ColorPainter printer.
3. The printheads are NOT the same as the Redhill printer.
4. Redhill does not make the printer; it is a relabled printer from China from a company called Yaselan. This printer was originally announced almost 2 years ago - but never shipped to any customer due to "unknown" reasons until recently.
5. The ink sold by Redhill is not the same ink as in the Seiko ColorPainter 64S.
Mr. Barrett, comparing the unproven Redhill product to the established Seiko ColorPainter 64S printer is quite flattering, but please get your facts straight before posting on a public forum. There are significant reasons why the ColorPainter 64S is one the world's most popular solvent inkjet printers and the Yaselan (Redhill) printer is not.
I suggest that you and any signweb readers talk directly with one of our authorized ColorPainter 64S resellers to compare and contrast our products with the other products available on the market. Our resellers are the most experienced and knowledgeable companies in the WF solvent market - many of which carry multiple lines of printers. They can provide a much more detailed and factual analysis of your needs and if the ColorPainter 64S printer is right for your business.
Pat Ryan
General Manager
Seiko I Infotech Americas
James:
Ask a simple question and you open Pandora's Box! :)
If you want to print banners, 2mil cast adhesive vinyl for vehicle wraps, and print and die-cut decals, then do your self a favor and buy a true solvent ink printer (ie Seiko CP64S or Mimaki JV3-160SP).
Josh says: <>
The cost to print an uncoated scrim banner on the Mimaki using third party inks is about $0.30 sq. ft. ($0.40 with Seiko), INK and MATERIAL. You simply won't compete for the business in the general market with any banners printed on coated pvc and aqueous ink that costs a minimum of $1.00+ a square foot higher.
Josh says: <>
Yessir, that's the way it USED to be. Times have changed, and I can tell you with certainty that many of my clients have HP or Encad aqueous ink printers in their office that have not been fired up since the day their solvent ink printer was installed.
The print graphics off the Seiko CP64S equal and most often betters any POP graphic printed on the HP.
I would encourage you wholeheartedly to perfor due diligence. Get out and see for yourself.
Good printing,
Bob Gruner
www.gochromatek.com
PS - Whatever you do, buy at least a 50+" wide printer. 36" wide and 42" wide printers are too narrow for the preponderance of outdoor graphics.
Well heres another point to think about since pandoras box is open. Why would you even want to activley sell banner jobs anyways? Everyone and there moms are printing banners for next to nothing. Go sell tradeshow graphics or pop displays that people are still willing to pay top dollar for. As an owner who sells the supplies to the major sign shops I dont mess around with color bonds or photo papers because your no different then the next guy doing it. To be successfull in any industry you must be different then the other guy and thats just the plain truth. Anyone who believes different is sadly mistaken.
Like Bob said go talk to some people out there running the machines, they will all tell you the same thing. Their machine is great and there are never problems. Not always what you want to hear.
Stay away from banner jobs is my suggestion. Besides that dont get caught up in the whole solvent era because its not all its cracked up to be. Unless you like be exposed to heavy solvent fumes all day.
Josh refuses to say uncle! :)
Josh says: <>
You sell banner jobs to MAKE money! :) The only one printing banners and selling them for next to nothing are printers with solvent ink printers printing on uncoated pvc material. And even those folks are selling finished banners for at leat $2.00 a square foot. If you can produce them for $0.30 a square foot then the margins at $2.00 a square foot looks pretty nice! :) Most of my clients get considerably more than $2.00 a square foot for banners and they get considerably more for cast and calendared adhesive backed vinyl prints for vehicles and such. We sell a very nice fire retardent, latex coated cotton fabric wall covering for about $0.50 a square foot that is often sold and installed for $10.00 a square foot or more.
Josh says: <>
ALL my clients that I've sold an Arizona 90 or 180, Mimaki JV3-160SP or JV3-250SP, or a Seiko CP64S solvent ink printers have made many dollars printing banners.
By the way Josh, if you properly vent your true solvent or eco-solvent printer, then you won't be exposed to heavy solvent fumes all day.
I understand the frustrations of watching the market demand for aqueous inkjet coated papers and films being eaten away by the growing demand for uncoated pvc products. There's very little margin for resellers. I used to sell 50" x 100' 7mil photoglossy aqueous coated inkjet paper by the tractor trailor load Josh. Those were the good ole days. Sometimes I still long for them! :)
Bob gruner
www.gochromatek.com
Bob if what you say is true then why does the largest print shop in this industry only use HP machines? They have plenty of money to purchase solvent based machines and yet they only use HP's, about 600 of them in fact they can produce all their graphics for about the same price as your true solvent machines minus the fumes of course. Solvent machines are great but the HP's are better for start up companies. With the right profiles you can produce graphics at about the same price, yes your solvent print will last longer but last time I checked it always better to get a re-buy every year as opposed to every 5 years right.
Aye caramba Josh!
There are probably 1000 times more wide format aqueous ink printers installed in the market than solvent ink printers. They've been around and relatively affordable since the early 90's. I had one client who has close to 200 50"-60" Encad printers. All of their graphics were indoors and for short term display before being discarded. There are thousands of CAD printers still in use as well.
Aqueous ink printers are not going away...EXCEPT at Sign Shops, Display Graphic companies, and Reprographic companies that have large requirements for lowcost OUTDOOR graphics. The handwriting is on the wall! :)
Bob Gruner
Did you enjoy this article? Click here to subscribe to the magazine.
